Learning the Rach 3

[Sergey R]

Ok, I have read this topic about learning long pieces:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2255.0.html

But I was wondering if anyone could offer me any advise specific to this concerto such as what sections to start on, etc. Should I learn the difficult sections from each movement, and what do you think would be good sections to work on first?

[BoliverAllmon]

sight-red through it and you will find for yourself what is tough for you.

[Sergey R]

It's kind of hard to sightread through the entire concerto, because there are many difficult parts. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what would be a good place to start? And also, should I learn each movement individually or work on parts from all three of the movements at once? And once I finish learning the difficult parts, should I start from the beginning of each movement to fill in the gaps, or the beginning of the entire work?

Thanks,

Sergey R

[steinwayguy]

Just start at the beginning of the third movement. Do that. Then go through the first and the second.

[Sergey R]

Well I started with the difficult parts from the first movement, and the Cadenza was one of them. I have chosen to do the short one because I think it sounds better, but I have encountered problems. I didn't think this would be the hard part of it, but at the start of the Cadenza I'm not really sure about fingering with those passages. The score switches between Bass and Treble clef seeming to suggest right and left hand but this involves some crossovers that seem a bit awkward at first. I tried playing them and I think it is possible but I was just wondering whether anyone knew whether you are supposed to cross over your hands during these first passages or not so I don't practise the wrong technique.

Thanks,

Sergey R

[min@m]

you can skip the first 2 pages.  and the last 2 of the first movement.  =)  Id say work on it from beginning to end.  I found there were some really tricky parts in the first and 2nd.  3rd movt although sounds hard is not so difficult.  Just learn the notes and then tackle the aesthetic context in the music.

[Sergey R]

Ok, thanks for the help. I think I'll just work on it from beginning to end. It'd be good to able to play the first movement when I complete it rather than playing parts of each movement and have to learn the entire thing before I can play anything. I'll worry more about the Cadenza when I get to it again...

Sergey R

[lostinidlewonder]

I'd be happy to help you out  but it is a large score so any particular bar(s)? I would say learn the 1st movement cadenza first and work from there because that can always be played as a little solo piece itself. Good practice.

[Sergey R]

Thankyou lostinidlewonder, would you be able to help me out with what I asked in my post about the first bits of the cadenza? In bars 3, 4, 7, 8, 11, & 13 of the cadenza are you supposed to cross your hands over? It seems a bit awkward but it is possible, but I don't want to learn the wrong way.

Thanks,

Sergey R

[lostinidlewonder]

Now i have to ask which version of the cadenza? Sorry im stupid.

The one which starts with just single note or the one which has the chords?

single note one:  ADF GG#ABbBC etc.
chord one: ADFGG# (Lh:FBbD + Rh:FBbD)

I guess the chord one is the one Rachmaninov prefered, I'm not sure if it has a particular name associated with it, maybe someone can clarify that. THere are these 2 different versions, I prefer the chordal one myself, the single one sounds too easy, in comparison.

The single note one is rather easy however basically it is 2 quavers in Lh to 4 in Rh shared which shouldn't set up any confusion as to where you have to go, dont play the Lh notes with RH even if you can that would be ridiculous.

[Sergey R]

I'm talking about the short single note one.

Sergey R

[lostinidlewonder]

Im looking at the 3rd bar of the one you say. have Lh above RH of course. I would use these hands

3rd Bar: C#(LH) DBbFA(RH)  AD(LH) BGDF(RH) F | Bar4: A (LH)

as you can see it is simply 2 against 4 sharing, and that continues pretty much until the 3rd page.

[Sergey R]

Ok, so I do just follow what the score indicates for left and right hand. What I meant by crossing over is that, in the third bar of the short cadenza your left hand plays a note then your right hand plays four. After your right hand has just finished playing that low A your left hand must immediately play an A one octave higher and then the D below that. This means that your left hand will be higher up the keyboard than your right hand meaning that you must "cross over". This is what I was referring to. It just seemed a bit awkward to do at first but it is definitely what I am meant to do?

[lostinidlewonder]

I know what you mean now, and thats what you gotta do. Unless you are some unorthodoxed psycho.... lol. But I find that if you do anything else with this sharing of 2 Lh and 4 in Rh as written, you will mutate the sound and also make more difficult the memorisation. That goes for going against the hands marked in any music, you would do it only if it doesn't affect the sound required.

Lh Requires sorta a (.) and  (>) accent on the two notes. which demands pretty good control. I think this highlights what needs to be heard as well.

[Sergey R]

Ok, thanks for clearing that up. I just wanted to make sure, because I wouldn't want to practise up the wrong way and then have to learn it all over again. BTW, are you supposed to accent the 1st and 3rd right hand notes in each six? I mean D & F, Bb & D, C# & E, D & F, D & F, D & F, D & F, C# & E, F & A, D & F, E & G, F & A, F & A, etc...? This is how I've heard it when listening to it in a few recordings. You suggest the left hand accents but I've heard these right hand ones too. How are the accents supposed to go?

[lostinidlewonder]

Yep thats on the right track, both hands are continually talking back to one another through the drawing out of the notes as you mentioned as well as the Lh. But don't over do the accent on them or it will be way too hard to make the > markings later which to be noticed, unless you're really strong lol.

The finger touch sorta go. LH light drop Rh drop light drop light,  LH light drop --- etc

I think towards the end when the RH starts playing double note chords and then three note chords, reduce the legato effect, make the sounds a little more sharp and stacatto almost. I have heard that played by Horowitz that way and its very effective, also allows these added notes to be fully appreciated imo. And when you come to the > give them full length and authority even broaden them out slightly until the ff marks.

[Sergey R]

Wow, thankyou so much for your help. I will try out your suggestions. I'll ask if anything else comes up whilst learning.

Sergey R

[ramseytheii]

Look at all of the passages, and categorize them into their types of difficulty.  Huge chordal passages, for instance, like the real cadenza, that should be played always; or passages of intense polyphony, where one hand sometimes manages three parts; repeated notes; passages where the hands alternate; Rachmaninoffs demands are actually quite specific.   And ultimately pianistic, though to the extreme.   The polyphony is really the thing, that when you improve that, the entire piece will improve, in my opinion.  Because in all of the above difficulties I listed, polyphony plays a major role, even in passages that seem to be only massed chords.

Walter Ramsey

[thierry13]

I guess the chord one is the one Rachmaninov prefered, I'm not sure if it has a particular name associated with it, maybe someone can clarify that. THere are these 2 different versions, I prefer the chordal one myself, the single one sounds too easy, in comparison.

Rachmaninoff prefered the single note one. He said that the chord one sounded two much like an ending to the concerto, so it would not fit in the concerto. I have the recording where rachmaninoff himself play the 4 concertos, and he plays the single-note one.

[ramseytheii]

Rachmaninoff prefered the single note one. He said that the chord one sounded two much like an ending to the concerto, so it would not fit in the concerto. I have the recording where rachmaninoff himself play the 4 concertos, and he plays the single-note one.

Rachmaninoff was notoriously insecure about his own works, and often changed things on a whim (see his letters to Medtner concerning the Corelli Variations.)  He also allowed other's to butcher his work through cuts and "revisions," ie Horowitz.  Definitely the chordal cadenza is the appropriate one to play for the third concerto, it is musically and pianistically the more interesting and climactic of the two.

Walter Ramsey

[thierry13]

Most interesting, but Horowitz, who definitly recorded the best version of this concerto, played the first Cadenza. I would personally play the ossia cadenza, but the best to play for the whole Idea of the COMPLETE concerto is the first one. And the only one Rachmaninoff allowed to rearrange his own works like that is Horowitz. Rachmaninoff really got down because of the bashing critics of the first simphony. He made a couple depressions. So that's pretty much the reason. Horowitz and Rachmaninoff both admired each other, so it's natural that Rachmaninoff looks at the propositions of Horowitz. Horowitz arranged the second sonata, and ASKED Rachmaninoff if it was OK, and Rachmaninoff agreed, SO it was edited. He didn't "allowed other's to butcher his work". He was only open from suggestions ( by Horowitz, of course  )

[steinwayguy]

Most interesting, but Horowitz, who definitly recorded the best version of this concerto

Wrong.

the best to play for the whole Idea of the COMPLETE concerto is the first one

Wrong.

He didn't "allowed other's to butcher his work".

Wrong. Two words-

David.
Helfgott.

[BoliverAllmon]

Wrong.



Wrong.



Wrong. Two words-

David.
Helfgott.

then who did record the best and I don't think rachmaninoff had a choice with helfgott.

[ectasy]

What about Krystian Zimerman performance of Rach 3 ...?

[etudes]

Krystian Zimerman did he record Rach3
as fas as i know now he just only record Rach2 ?