The Hatto Hoax Scandal *OMGWTF?!*

[opus10no2]

To summarise-

HATTO RECORDINGS ARE FAKE

They are all part of an elaborate scheme, her recordings are cleverly edited and sped up recordings of other pianists.

Observe -

https://www.dasdc.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8631

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/newsMainTemplate.asp?storyID=2759&newssectionID=1

https://www.pristineclassical.com/HattoHoax.html

[chromatickler]

i demand this topic be blessed with the divine presence of the legendary soliliquy

[opus10no2]

Further discussion can be found -

https://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/2/14140.html

But predicktably, the first place to find conclusive evidence and undergo a serious extensive investigation is da SDC -

https://www.dasdc.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8631

Conclusive recorded evidence conducted by qualified pathologists and forensic scientists.

[cygnusdei]

Y'all been Hattoed!!!!!

[opus10no2]

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,21017.msg231961.html#msg231961

I knew it all along, mate. 

[cygnusdei]

I hope this will motivate recording labels to release more DVDs.

[opus10no2]

Well, Horowitz's performance on the Art of Piano DVD of Chopin's 25/10 was sped up, new technologies make these fakes possible. Richter's 10/12 was also purportedly sped up.

[steinwaymodeld]

Y'all been Hattoed!!!!!

hahahah truly 

i spent 80 buckz on her CDz, possibly a bit ghey move on ma part.

[opus10no2]

further discussion-

https://www.gamingforce.com/forums/listening-room/18833-joyce-hatto-conspiracy.html

[ahinton]

Well, it is certainly true that, as the Gramophone article relates, the spectre of this possible "hoax" was raised some while ago and, when the author and critic Jeremy Nicholas challenged anyone claiming to possess supportive evidence to come forward with it, the whole thing seemed to die a fairly swift death; now it has raised its head again, "courtesy" of Andrew Rose at Pristine Audio, it has been taken seriously enough by Gramophone to endorse the possibility by publishing the article cited earlier. Whether Gramophone really has substantially more evidence up its sleeve for the advertised "larger article" promised for next month's issue remains to be seen.

So, if we all take off (or do not don in the first place) our conspiracy theory hat(to)s and try to approach this with as much pragmatism and sanguinity as possible, what can we reasonably assume from the story so far?

There does appear to be sufficient evidence that Joyce Hatto actually was a pianist of some considerable prowess who was active at least between the latter 1940s and some time in the 1960s or later and that the work that became her calling card was the very substantial Symphonic Variations for piano and orchestra by Bax. Before Hatto played it, only Bax's wife Harriet Cohen (for whom it was written) appears to have done so - and she only ever played a severely truncated version, so Hatto is believed to have been the first pianist ever to have played the full original version and few pianists have ever played it since.

Clearly, some painstaking research about her performing career would not come amiss in that it would help to fill out some gaps in general knowledge of her work.

In the 1950s, she is said to have been the first pianist ever to have performed the complete Beethoven Symphonies in Liszt's piano transcriptions and she is supposed to have broadcast them all on BBC at around that time; the broadcasts were also reckoned to have been the first time that these works had been transmitted in their entirety.

It is understood that Ms Hatto fought a battle with cancer for some 36 years until her death last June (this is an inordinately long time, but such things are not unheard of) and that, during this time, she abandoned her performing career but began the series of recordings some time in the 1980s. It is also said that Ms Hatto was quite exceptionally self-effacing.

In what would by anyone's standards seem to be a colossal and wide-ranging recorded repertoire, two substantial works perhaps stand out most significantly - Messiaen's Vingt Regards sur l'Enfant-Jésus and the complete Chopin/Godowsky Studies; there have been a fair few recordings of the former over the past couple of decades or so, but only four of the latter (by just three pianists - Madge, Grante[2] and Hamelin) at any time - and only one pianist besides those three (Libetta) is known ever to have performed that cycle in its entirety (he is indeed credited with having been the first pianist ever to have done so). It is claimed that Hatto recorded both of these works very later in life but that neither of them was at all new to her repertoire when she recorded them.

Now, let's look at a couple of things that might be of some significance. It strikes me that any notable pianist, especially if British (as Hatto was) would have known something about her and what happened to her, especially had they held her in the high regard that has been accorded to her since the recordings began to appear; one would therefore assume that one or more such pianists would accordingly have said or written something about her and her work at some point, unless they had all previously been prepared to remain sworn to secrecy for some reason or none (which would seem less than likely). I knew the late John Ogdon and the late Ronald Smith, with whom she shared quite a lot of repertoire; neither of them ever spoke of Hatto in my hearing or wrote anything about her that I have seen. Those BBC Liszt broadcasts were produced by the British composer Humphrey Searle, who was one of the world's leading authorities on Liszt; I studied with Searle over a period of three years during which we discussed Alkan, Godowsky, Busoni and others - and most especially Liszt, of course - extensively, but he never mentioned her once to me and, perhaps more importantly, this historic event seems not to feature in Humphrey's memoirs Quadrille with a Raven, despite the fact that they contain plenty of other information about his time at BBC. That's not to say that it didn't happen, of course - and one may imagine that it could be checked without undue difficulty. The composer Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji had admittedly retired as a professional music critic by the time Hatto's career really took off, but since Sorabji had praised that Bax work to the skies in the past (describing it - along with concerti by Bowen and the big concerto by Alan Bush - as pinnacles of achievement in British works for piano and orchestra), one might imagine that he would have said something about her at some point; she is not mentioned in any of his known published writings, nor did he ever mention her name to me during the 16½ years that I knew him.

All of this, added to certain parts of the story that have been told about Hatto, might indeed risk arousing some degree of suspicion - and the fact that these recordings of hers, which are supposed to have been made from the 1980s onwards, have only begun to be released relatively recently might possibly enhance the doubts.

If indeed this really is a hoax, it is a very large-scale one indeed - and perhaps one to which Hatto herself may not only not have been party but of which she may not even have known. Furthermore, the risk attached to faking the Chopin/Godowsky recording in particular is especially great, given the small number of other complete sets that have been released.

Whatever the outcome, I suspect that this one is not about to go away this time around. What Sr. Grante and the Altarus people may think, or do, about it I have no idea and it is, of course, early days yet. The presence of teams of lawyers looks set to be an unavoidable prospect if increasing quantities of detailed allegation are published in such places as Gramophone. It will also surely only be a matter of time before the famous/notorious impending-death-of-the-classical-record-industry-monger Norman Lebrecht gleefully jumps on board with his probably inflammatory take on it all; indeed, one can easily envisage him relishing rolling up his literary sleeves and turning this pig's breakfast into a prig's Lebrecht-fest, especially as he may well conclude that the defence usually mounted against his classical recording death-knell reports - that more and more such CDs are nevertheless released month by month - is spurious on the basis that if William Barrington Coupe can make fakes and get away with it on this scale, who else might also be doing it? What next? Will this kind of thing be extended to embrace recent composer discoveries like the Roslavets Chamber Symphony? Who can say? The only certain thing at this point is that, unless this business is permanently suppressed pretty soon (which now seems more unlikely than ever), the interested observer is going to have a lot of entertainment to enjoy! It'll make the Rosemary Brown business look pretty tame by comparison, that's for sure!

Best,

Alistair

[jakev2.0]

So, if we all take off (or do not don in the first place) our conspiracy theory hat(to)s and try to approach this with as much pragmatism and sanguinity as possible

Do we really have to take off our conspiracy hats? Not that I'm a fan of brazen conjecture...but my particular conspiracy hat is a purple fedora with a black feather tucked behind a siberian tiger-print band - in other words: zmooth. 

HAHAHAHA.é GENISU

[iumonito]

Well, those Hatto Chop-Gods are really nice, and what I heard in the sampler is done in absolutely good taste.

The truth shall shine thru.

[ahinton]

Do we really have to take off our conspiracy hats? Not that I'm a fan of brazen conjecture...but my particular conspiracy hat is a purple fedora with a black feather tucked behind a siberian tiger-print band - in other words: zmooth. 

I think that my meaning here was patently obvious in that it is a good idea to try to stand back from all the accusations and conspiracy theories and examine suchever facts as are available; if you want to do that - and can - while wearing the hat that you mention, then please feel free to do so.

That said, I blame that Schumann, myself; in the company of quite a few witnesses, he once famously said of Chopin/Godowsky: "Hattos off, gentlemen - a genius!"...

Best,

Alistair

[iumonito]

I think that my meaning here was patently obvious in that it is a good idea to try to stand back from all the accusations and conspiracy theories and examine suchever facts as are available; if you want to do that - and can - while wearing the hat that you mention, then please feel free to do so.

That said, I blame that Schumann, myself; in the company of quite a few witnesses, he once famously said of Chopin/Godowsky: "Hattos off, gentlemen - a genius!"...

Best,

Alistair

Funny.

The wikkipedia article on Ms. Hatto refers to a page apparently authored by Ates Orga, full of little checkable details.

And while we are on the subject, this is the same label selling Sergio Fiorentino's CDs.  I have seen Fiorentino on youtube and not heard his recordings, so I don't know what way it cuts.

[ramseytheii]

I'd like to hear a first-hand account of her playing from someone other than the record producer husband.  Surely an orchestral conductor, or an orchestral musician can vouch for this person.  i think the evidence is compelling enough to doubt the recordings are what they claim to be.  But so far we haven't heard anything from a third party who was in the room when she was allegedly playing these works.  perhaps the mi5 killed them all?

Walter Ramsey

[ahinton]

Funny.

The wikkipedia article on Ms. Hatto refers to a page apparently authored by Ates Orga, full of little checkable details.

And while we are on the subject, this is the same label selling Sergio Fiorentino's CDs.  I have seen Fiorentino on youtube and not heard his recordings, so I don't know what way it cuts.

Orga certainly ought to be relied upon to know what he's talking about. We can't ask Fiorentino anything now, of course. the fact that Hatto had not played in public for many years indirectly helps the accusers, of course, although it does notof itself prove anything.

Here is a response which I have received about this matter. It is from someone who prefers to remain anonymous and who knows a lot about things that are relevant here but has not heard any of Hatto's recordings:


I think it's hilarious. And a further example, crashingly and obtrusively obvious enough even to be apparent to the swinish internet-dwelling troglodytes that make up today's 'music' 'loving' public, of the damage that has been done to musicianship by the march of technology beyond the capacity of those who use it, to control it.

For what it's worth, if the Pristine Audio evidence is authentic, it's pretty much incontrovertible. Of course, there is an 'if', since showing two identical waveforms next to each other proves nothing unless you know exactly where they came from. However, the test is one that's easy to replicate; there's all manner of shareware software available that will do it, so just about anyone with the Hatto CD and the alleged 'source' CD and a $300 computer can see for themselves. And knowing this, and the seriousness of the allegations they're making, it's a bit difficult to see Pristine Audio going out in public with something like this without being pretty damn sure they were telling the truth and could prove it. The online copyright database thing isn't foolproof, but it is additional evidence (which again anyone with a computer and the Hatto CDs can try for themselves) - this is actually carried by a subcode on the CD, and suggests that the person who prepared the 'Hatto' masters wasn't even a very sophisticated pirate, as subcodes can be stripped or altered if you know where to look for them.

I'm just sitting here laughing at all the w***ers who were so happy to discover this wonderful new recording of the Godowsky that swept all before it, if it turns out that they were listening to Carlo's all along. There will be a couple of reviewers suffering a serious case of egg-on-face if this all turns out to be true. The one who, as I recall, compared 'Hatto' favourably with Marc, and didn't even mention that Carlo's existed, for instance. Even if it turns out that the 'Hatto' was cherry-picked from different CDs, as the Liszt is alleged to be, and some of it actually _is_ Marc, it doesn't make it much less embarrassing for the critics. Although I had an idea...that Marc had heard some of the Hatto, and I'd be very surprised if someone of his musical acuity wouldn't have recognised his own performance, subtly altered or not, so if that it so, it suggests that he wasn't the 'source'.

Well, there will be lawsuits, of course. If it's not true, Barrington-Coupe will clean up; if it is..."

Best,

Alistair

[m]

If those recordings are indeed hoax, then some real amateurs were doing the whole thing. It is possible to change a wave shape, change dynamics, phrasing, re-edit such repetative pieces as Chopin-Godowsky, slightly change tempi, remaster, etc., so nobody ever could possibly identify original.
Definitely, requires a considerable knowledge and budget to do it right, though.
What a bunch of dilettantes!!!

[mephisto]

My Lazar Berman edition sais that he lived with the pianist Joyce Hatto for a while, while he staid in Britain. It would be interesting to hear what he said about her playing.

[jakev2.0]

She must have had a big apartment. 

[trinapiano]

I dont know if this has been posted already and many may have seen it already but her husband has confessed his wrongdoing in this case...
article here.. https://www.gramophone.co.uk/newsMainTemplate.asp?storyID=2765&newssectionID=1

[soliloquy]

i demand this topic be blessed with the divine presence of the legendary soliliquy

In honorary memorium of da zepp, I have come to grant his last, dying (on pianostreet) wish.



Jayce Hatto you have much to learn

[jlh]

Amazon.com made an announcement to this regard as well, and there is a list of CD's from which source recordings were used.  If you'd like to view it and listen to samples here's the link:

https://www.amazon.com/Victims-of-the-Hatto-Hoax/lm/R1FG09MQA7HJ4Z

[marriemb]

atleast amazon came up with an answer