Thumb Over/Under?

[allchopin]

Could someone accurately describe this method?  I have read that it means literally bringing your thumb over your hand when playing scales. etc... but this doesn't seem physically possible.  Fill me in?

[fanaticalpianist]

Hahaha, where in the WORLD did you read that description of TO?

All TO means is to not move the thumb under the other fingers.  By not doing this, the thumb is much freer and faster speeds can be achieved.  Of course, when you reach fast speeds with TU you automatically begin to adopt TO technique.

I have read that some teachers completely forbid their students to ever pass the thumb under any other fingers, not sure how their students turned out.  

I am pretty sure though that the Russian School of philosophy preaches TO pretty heavily.  And it does free the hand up considerably, and allows a clear conception of scales and arppeggios.

However, TU is still required at times.  The best method to learning imo is to Learn both TU and TO.

[liszmaninopin]

I've read about TO before, but never really used it.  TU seems to work pretty well for me most of the time, but if I need alot of power or speed with the note I am to hit with the thumb, I will move my hand; but it really depends on the exact situation.  Is that basically what TO is?

[fanaticalpianist]

It boils down to treating the thumb as another finger, and only moving it vertically for the most part.  

[allchopin]

So really, there is no "over" action happening at all.  You are just moving your hand laterally very fast in order for the thumb to hit the next key... ?  Crossing under happens naturally anyway.

[ysn1016]

There is a good description of the thumb over method beginning on page 50 of this free book found on the website https://members.aol.com/cc88m/PianoBook.html.

[bernhard]

Could someone accurately describe this method?  

Accurate description probably not possible. Best way is to have someone (who knows what they are talking about) to show you. I will give it a try.

1.      Place your right hand on the desk in front of you (I am assumning you are at the computer so it would be a drag to go forth and back to the piano), pretending is a keyboard. Keep your fingers parallel to the keys, slightly arched as you would do. Now  - without moving anything else, fingers, hands, wrists, forearms, or arms – move your thumb top the right, under your hand. How far can you reach? It will be different for different people. It will depend how long is your thumb (mine is not very long), and how flexible your thumb joint is (I am extremely flexible). I can actually move my thumb so much under my hand (without moving anything else) that its tip appears on the other side. Notice that although you may kike to call this a “lateral” or “sideways” movement of the thumb, it is actually a “vertical” movement of the thumb, completely analogous to the vertical movement of the remaining four fingers. This is important. So let me say a bit more about it. The other four fingers when playing, go “up and down” if we take the nail and finger pad as reference points. Likewise, if you take the nail and fingerpad as reference points, the thumb movement when going under the hand is also “up and down”. It only looks “sideways” because the thumb opposes the other fingers. Anyway, this is the “thumb under” movement in splendid isolation.
2.      Now let us try to do the same thing but bringing the thumb over the hand. If you do not move anything but the thumb, it will be nearly impossible. With all my thumb flexibility, I hardly manage to bring it over the second finger. So, as you correctly surmised, you cannot have a “thumb over” movement in isolation.
3.      Now let us return to the thumb under movement. This time you are allowed to rotate your arm as you pass the thumb under. You can accomplish that by fixing one of the other four fingers on the desk/keyboard) and pivoting the hand on that finger. Try it with the second finger held firmly in place, then the third finger, then the fourth finger, then the fifth finger. Your elbow will most likely rise, but it is possible to limit the movement to a rotation of the forearm, so that the elbow is barely involved. Pivoting on the third and fourth finger are the most used in orthodox scale and arpeggio playing, but pivoting on the second is also common, with pivoting on the fifth finger being the least used. By adding this extra movements on other parts of the arms, bringing the thumb under becomes far more negotiable (as compared with moving the thumb in isolation). What about doing that with the thumb over?
4.      If you roll your whole hand (engaging the arm and forearm to help), it is now possible (although extremely awkward) to bring the thumb over the hand. But why would anyone want to go through this trouble? So we must add another movement to it: we must get the other fingers out of the way. If as you turn your hand you retrieve your fingers (like in making a fist), not only you will be able to pass your thumb over, as you will be playing with the pad of the thumb (as opposed to the side of the thumb). But you may also notice that a lot of arm-forearm and even shoulder movement will be involved to accomplish this strange and still awkward movement.
5.      Now let us try another set of movements. The logic behind this next set of movements goes as follows: the best (more efficient) movement for the thumb is “sideways” that is the side of the thumb hits the key – not the finger pad. Likewise, the most efficient movement to the other four fingers is “up and down”, that is the nail is uppermost and the finger pad hits the keys. When bringing the thumb under the hand, or over the hand (as described in item 4) the thumb is immediately in a disadvantage in regards to its most efficient manner of playing. However, if you slant your hand to the right (anywhere from 30 to 60 degrees) in relation to the keys (before you were keeping your fingers parallel to the keys, remember?) then there is no need for the thumb to go under the hand any more. Likewise. If you slant the hand to the left, the thumb can easily go over the hand (it will not really “go over” because the hand is no more there). And best of all, in both cases (under or over) the thumb will be hitting the keys on the side, which is the most efficient way.
6.      Finally, keep your hand parallel to the keys again. This time simply move your hand sideways so that the thumb hits the next note in its best position. For instance if you are playing the C major scale, play CDE (fingers parallel to the keys), then reposition your hand on FGAB, and play the F with the thumb.

There are more possibilities than the ones described above, but these are the major ones. So what should we conclude from the above?

a.      Thumb under and thumb over are linguistic shortcuts at best and misleading misnomers at worst. The movements involve far more than the thumb, and in particular item 6 is really about elbow and upper arm movements, and not at all about fingers.
b.      The movements described are almost never used in the isolation described. Most likely a combination of them will be used (you will be slanting your hands, rotating the forearms, moving laterally and passing the thumb over or under at the same time and at different degrees).
c.      Most important, the specific combination of co-ordinations will depend on your physical capabilities (everyone has different hands which cannot be changed – and suppleness capabilities which can be improved to a certain extent), and of the particular musical effect you are trying to convey.

Therefore, practice has to be divided in two stages: Stage 1 is investigation and exploration of the best co-ordinations/movements – given your personal limitations – for the musical expression of the particular passage you are working on. Stage 2 – Ingraining into your subconscious the best you could come up with in stage 1.

Thumb under is essential for slow passages that must be rendered legato. Thumb over is essential for fast passages, where the complications of bringing the thumb under the hand would result in jerky playing. But ultimately, you must have a very clear idea on how a passage must sound, and keep experimenting with different sets of movements until you find the one that conveys it the best.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

P.S. This enormous posting is to celebrate my full member status!

[allchopin]

Hehe, wow.  Onward to Senior Level  !

Thanks for the massive post, but I'm still a little confused.  The over in "thumb over" doesn't really mean over, but as a means to an opposite term for the usual thumb under?  In essence, thumb over means moving the hand parallel to the keys in order to move the hand further along the keys...?  I didn't understand section 4- I got the impression that the thumb was supposed to whip around and hit the keys to the right of the hand, simply by way of rotating the hand.... this seems way too awkward to be correct... what was the purpose of describing rotation of the hand if thumb really just concerns moving the hand sideways quickly?

[bernhard]

“Thanks for the massive post, but I'm still a little confused.”

Don’t worry, these days the only ones that are not confused are the ones who are not thinking clearly!

“The over in "thumb over" doesn't really mean over, but as a means to an opposite term for the usual thumb under?  In essence, thumb over means moving the hand parallel to the keys in order to move the hand further along the keys...?”

Do not get too carried away by terminology. I doubt if two people could agree on what “thumb over” or “thumb under” really mean. These are very general categories and since no one has the same hands, no one will be able to play exactly the same.

Keep in mind two things I said:

1.      It is not really possible to describe these things satisfactorily in writing. It is best to see them (maybe Robert Henry or Joe Townley will make a video of it eventually - but even then, what will be shown on video is their version of it - the particular set of co-ordinations that work well for them and which you will have to adapt to your own hand).
2.      What I described were extreme movements in isolation. It is not desirable to play anything with such isolated, extreme movements. What is desirable is to figure out a composite of such movements that fulfils two criteria: a) comfortable according to one’s physical limitations (hand span, finger size, suppleness, etc.) and b) musical effectiveness.

So for instance, when playing fast scales (that sound like glissando) I tend to play neither thumb over nor thumb under, but rather to slant my hand so that the thumb never needs to go under or over. However, a slow motion movie of it would probably show some minute degree of thumb under and some degree of lateral hand displacement. On the other hand I find hand slanting not very effective for fast arpeggio playing, so I tend to displace my hand sideways keeping the fingers fairly perpendicular. Or at least that is what it feels and looks to me. However if a slow motion movie was made, I am sure some degree of hand slanting might be present as well as some rotation and thumb over. The important point, is that the movements I just described as being very effective for me, may or may not work for you, since we have different hands, arms, forearms, etc. Basically you have to experiment and find out what works for you. In my experience, as long as you have a clear aim, and keep trying new things if the ones that you tried did not work, eventually you will figure out the set(s) of co-ordinations that work for you for your specific aim.

“ I didn't understand section 4- I got the impression that the thumb was supposed to whip around and hit the keys to the right of the hand, simply by way of rotating the hand.... this seems way too awkward to be correct... what was the purpose of describing rotation of the hand if thumb really just concerns moving the hand sideways quickly?”

Yes, this movement at first is awkward. But keep in mind that one’s initial feelings of comfort/discomfort are not to be trusted. It may feel awkward and yet be the best way. Remember Dick Fosberry! He was the American high jumper who run towards the bar, and to the amazement of all, turned around and jumped backwards, falling flat on his back on the other side. (before1968, every competitor ran towards the bar and dived over it facing forwards). Everyone laughed at such ludicrous move, and it was immediately nicknamed Fosberry’s “flop”. But it was Fosberry who had the last laugh: he had cleared the bar for almost a foot above the previous high jump record!

Now I can think of few movements more unnatural than backwards jumping. Yet, by the next Olympics every single competitor in the high jump was jumping backwards. And they looked perfectly at ease with it. They had practised relentlessly until they could do it with grace and ease. In fact, since 68 no high jumper will consider jumping forward, to the extent that now jumping backwards seems to us completely natural. Clearly “natural” is not so obvious a concept as we might have thought.

The purpose of describing the movement in item 4 was exactly to show that “thumb over” is not simply displacing laterally the hand, as “jumping backwards” is a far more complex movement that the verbal description would lead us to believe.

Like Fosberry’s competitors, you will need to practise these separate movements (plus a few more!) until they do not feel awkward anymore, and then you will be able to decide which is good for what (for you).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[classical_bluebird]

Hi Bernhard,

I have a copy of Seymour Fink's book 'Mastering Piano Technique' and even in this it is difficult to follow the thumb over/under method. I've never fully comprehended it! You are correct - a video or actually watching someone actually performing this method would be a great asset. I was unable to get the accompanying video to the above book as it is unavailable in the UK.

Regards

Hywel

PS Perhaps you could do your own thumb under/over video for us mere mortals?!!

[fanaticalpianist]

I made a video of Thumb Over, I'll post it in a week or two when I get it converted from MiniDV.

[bernhard]

Hi Bernhard,

I have a copy of Seymour Fink's book 'Mastering Piano Technique' (...) I was unable to get the accompanying video to the above book as it is unavailable in the UK.

Hi, Hywell.

The book is good, but the video is essential. Much that is obscure in the book becomes clear in the video.

And yes, you cannot get the video in the UK. I phoned Amadeus Press directly, and they were most unhelpful and unaccomodating. That pissed me off, so I did what I should have done from the start. I simply phoned a friend in the USA, he went to a shop, bought the video and sent it to me. End of story. I suggest you do the same. (You will need a video with NTSC playback though, or you will need to transcodify the tape into PAL). It is also possible that a DVD is now available. By all means get the video, it is definitely worthwhile.

Have you read Gyorgi Sandor's "On Piano Playing?" He also discusses scales at length, but he never refers to it as thumb under or thumb over - as I said one should not get too carried away by terminology. or take it too literally. Unfortunately there is no accompanying video to Sandor's book

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[classical_bluebird]

Hi Bernhard,

Yes, you are correct, Amadeus Press were useless! I emailed them on numerous occasions and not once did I get a reply. Customer service is obviously not one of their priorities. I have heard glowing references to Gyorgi Sandor's book but have not read it. That, and Fink's book though are regarded as two of the best available I believe? The good news is that I have an NTSC video, but the bad news is that friends are few and far between in the US so I'm pretty sure I'm out of luck there

Regards

Hywel

[martyshka]

For those who ever stumble across this decades-old thread, I believe I have found a few youtube videos that demonstrate the thumb over technique. Even though they do not call it that what they do closely matches bernhard's description. Grigory Sandor's book (Arm rotation chapter) also describes the technique (in words and pictures). Hope this helps.
This a 4-part playlist

And another one

[lelle]

Never liked the "Thumb Over" name, it seems to just be a source of confusion. Who named it that anyways?