what on earth is going on??(chord analysis)

[Tash]

i'm analysing chopin's prelude no.20 in c minor for an assessment except i've gotten freakishly stuck on a couple of chords- i've said that in bar 4 it modulates to g major, then modulates to g minor in bar 5, but the chord on beat 3 or 3 1/2 doesn't work and it's really confusing me!! so first checking the my modulations are right (i've also said it modulates to c major in bar 6 then back to c minor- is that right?) and then if someone could give me a hint as to how to deal with the f# or B and Bb? thanks!!

[orlandopiano]

Does this piece really modulate at all?  Seems to me that bar 4 just has a couple secondary dominants (V7 of V) but never leaves C minor. 

And I am not so sure it modulates at bar 5 or 6 either.  Personally I hear bar 5 beat 3 as the vii dim.7, and then beat 4 as the minor dominant in 1st inversion, and I wouldn't make too much of that f# 16th note. I don't see it as the leading tone into g minor, despite that it might look like that.  It's just a passing tone. 

Bar 6 is still in C minor to me. I hear beat 1 as a borrowed IV chord in 1st inversion with an added 9th (the g) and the root omitted, followed by a French Sixth, which resolves to that dominant chord on beat 3.

I could be wrong.  It's been almost a decade since I seriously analyzed a piece in traditional theory.  Since then, my Berklee jazz education has probably brainwashed my ability to analyze like this. But this is how I perceive it.

[Tash]

well there has to be some kind of modulation because one of the things we have to do is identify all the modulations...

[orlandopiano]

well there has to be some kind of modulation because one of the things we have to do is identify all the modulations...

Well my idea of modulation is different then. I was taught that the piece had to stay a tad longer in that new key, with help from its new primary chords (new tonic, dominant etc) for it to be considered a full "modulation".  Otherwise, it's just borrowed chords.

If it was considered a modulation every single time a borrowed chord or secondary dominant occured in a piece, then most tonal music would have modulations everywhere.

[arensky]

It's either G major 1st inversion, without the G or bm7  with a flat 7. not conventional by any standard! To me it sounds like a G chord functioning as a dominant, so I think you're right, the final destination is C or c minor; (you'll hate this) doesn't matter which, he sets it up so either can happen. Is this for a class? Gos it's late to be thinking about stuff like this...g'nite!

[prometheus]

Yes, a modulation requires a full cadence in the new key. Otherwise we may just have 'roving harmony' as Schoenberg called it. This is when the harmony moves from key to key but never established any of them with a cadence. Or a progression in C minor with a majority of borrowed chords, which is very well possible.

A vii chord in the minor key can very well have a dominant function. But it is very much not a full cadence so it doesn't establish the new tonality.

I didn't look at the music itself. It's hard to read and I am lazy. But seems to me it never really gets into G minor. Note that the harmony can move out of C minor towards G minor without actually moving into G minor. It can 'rove' inbetween the two keys or bluntly stay ambigious.

[Tash]

yeah i was feeling a bit iffy about the g minor, but i think the g major should be right cos there's a million f#'s and i have to modulate somewhere!! i know we were meant to learn about using the diminished 7th in unrelated modulation yesterday in class except the lecturer was sick so it was cancelled...so i'm thinking that might have something to do with my silly chord. OH maybe that's where it modulates back to c minor, that could work i think....
thanks all for your help, it's for an assessment, due in a week or something, so no rush, i'm just trying to be organised for once!!