Organized Chat : "potluck" party

[m1469]

I would like to participate in an organized chat with a topic.  We have talked about it before, but only generally.  What I have in mind right now is a group project where whoever wants to, we pick an aspect of a topic and prepare something to share, like the salad or dessert part of a potluck.... mmmmmmmm.... yyummmmy foods..... 

Anyway, what do you think ?  I was thinking we could discuss Quantum Entanglement... heh, well we don't have to  .  But here are a couple of other ideas, though I would love to hear yours :

Bach inventions :  we each pick one and study it and present
Composers :  diddo to above


We could plan a time and a date.  It could even take place in a month or so....  Any interested parties ?



m1469 


ps-  cups and beverages will be provided 

[pianistimo]

mayla, i always like your ideas.  (puts party hat on)

i will bring brownies - that is, last year's essay on mozart's piano concerto cadenzas.  when do i bring them?  in a month?  i might forget.  can i bring some brownies today?  or will i be like the little girl nextdoor (several years ago) that wanted a ride to preschool at 8:00 in the morning when the class started at 10:00.  she came to the door dressed and backpack on - while i was in a sleepy daze.  she came in and started talking excitedly. i wondered about this enthusiasm.  what would make a child do this?  obviously they don't know what they're getting into.  sitting in a circle.  hands folded.  pretzel crossed legs.  (she bragged on the way back that she and my daughter knew how, but most of the boys didn't)

yes.  mayla, we may get a few guys that like to eat, but will they bring food?  will they have manners?  what if they try to eat the crackers with a knife and fork.

[pianistimo]

doles out first brownie:

what is an appropriate cadenza for a mozart piano concerto?

wolfgang amadeus mozart was a composer who wrote concertos (cadenzas included) not
only for himself, but for his sister Nannerl, for various students, and for certain performers
he had in mind.  in this paper, the eighteenth-century cadenza will take on many varied forms, yet for the most part be quite simple.  instead of proving a single performance thesis, what will be sought out will be an historical understanding of the classical cadenza with varying interpretations according to the particular purpose and style of the mozart concerto and/or performer.  mozart had a tendency to write out cadenzas to his piano concertos, thus leaving a trail of 'improvisation lead sheets' for those who now study the remaining original cadenzas and lead-ins (eingange).   today, we might think in terms of jazz musicians using skeletal riffs and expanding upon them.  mozart followed the baroque practice of improvising short, unaccompanied passages at points of rest separating, for example, a largo from an allegro section.  baroque cadenzas were usually concise - "perhaps a mere flourish of notes" - but they conveniently and dramatically introduced soloists who would appear alone afterwards.  corelli used short cadenzas in his op. 5 solo church sonatas.  basically, the 'lead-in cadenza' is a brief improvised passage that leads to the true solo passage.  in mozart, as opposed to corelli, the musical separation is not the concertino from the tutti but rather the piano from the orchestra leading to the piano alone.  or, if the 'lead in' occurs at the end of a cadenza, it leads the orchestra back in gradually. 

for easier reading, this paper is subsectioned into parts.  that is to help make sense of a topic searching for multifacted answers in the performance practices of the time.  attempting to come to personal conclusions will not be the purpose of this paper.  rather, an unbiased rendering of various accounts of performers and theorists of the time.  most important will be mozart's personal thoughts ont he performance of his piano concerto cadenzas. 

[pianistimo]

next brownie:

definition of the cadenza in the eighteenth century

we have many sources for a definition of the cadenza in the eighteenth century.  some theorist/composer/performers of the time included johann quantz (1752), leopold mozart (1756), cpe back (1759), and daniel gottlieb turk (1789).  because they were of the same period as mozart, their writings will be considered primary and of first importance.  quantz and bach were of the 'old school' of thought in that they believed an instrumental cadenza should be most like a singer's cadenza and capable of being executed in a single breath.  gb mancini, a singing teacher at the imperial court in vienna (though realizing that the one-breath rule was often broken) added his ideas in that there should be a relationship of improvised passages to the thematic material.  during the eighteenth century  there was no uniform opinion on this.

*insert "quantz suggested that a singer who could not think of something new with which to begin a cadenza should choose instead one of the most attractive motifs from the aria and build a cadenza from it.  if the record of the century's greatest composers is anything to go by, js bach, his sons, haydn and mozart all composed non-thematic cadenzas and only from about 1779 onwards do mozart's cadenzas begin to quote or develop thematic material from the concerto to which they belong."

the improvisational beginning of the cadenza with voice led to other instruments following suit whenever a fermata was encountered.  in fact, the word 'cadenza' is also called 'cadence' or 'fermata.'  in italian; arbitrio, point d'orgue.  during this quiet time where the accompaniment pauses or sustains a pitch or chord, a passage is played by a soloist that is either improvised or written out over the penultimate or antipenultimate note or harmony of the cadence.  "although a cadenza may appear elsewhere, it most typically ornaments a prominent tonic cadence, such as one before a final *ritornello or *coda...if improvised , it may be indicated by a fermata in all parts."  an example of this can be found in measure 742 of the mozart k 595 piano concerto.  here, the cadenza should commence with the right hand b-flat, continue at the pianists discretion, and conclude with a trill and chord, as written, to signal the orchestra's reentry. 

trills signalling the beginning and ending of cadenzas are mentioned by quantz in 'the art of playing the german flute.'  he speaks of trills in the context of the messa di voce.  the player is warned not to use the embellishment too often.  there were guidelines from tromlitz that summed up the standard useage of trills at the end of the eighteenth century.  "the vibrato (bebung) is a wave-like, quivering movement that is introduced on a long held-note, pauses, and on the note before a cadenza."  once the cadenza is established by this trill, there is a general theory about what should follow written by daniel gottlieb turk in his 'klavierschule' (1789).  he lamented the practice of making  ... (have to finish copying later)

sources so far :  michael thomas roeder, a history of the concerto(oregon: amadeus press, 1994) 29.  badura skoda, eva and william drabkin, 'cadenza' in the new grove dictionary of music and musicians, ed. stanley sadie et al, 4:783:790 (new york: mac millian publishers limited, 2001) 783-790.  the new harvard dictionary of music, compiled by don michael randell, (belknap press, cambridge, mass. , 1986) 123.  brown, clive, classical and romantic performing practices from 1750-1900, (oxford: oxford university press, 1999) 543 quoting unterricht, 239-40.)

ps feel free to critique (am leading up to discussing the disappearance of some of the original cadenzas - and mozart's normal composition practice of writing them out - even for himself - as an improviser - using them like lead-sheets - and trying to keep them in a separate folder from the piano concertos). 

[m1469]

mmmmm, delicious brownies, pianistimo...

Well, here is the thing... I was thinking about doing this in the chat room, you know, where you could be an expert for about 10 minutes or so, present your stuff, have people ask you questions.  But, I can't tell what the benefit of doing that in the chat room over doing it in a thread would be, other than a little bit more on the "live" side.  I mean... this is a really great party you and I are having already... drinks, brownies, and party hats... please continue

*sips margarita while quietly listening to pianistimo's intriguing talk.  Raises hand to ask a question (pianistimo doesn't see), puts hand down in lap while blushing slightly... continues sipping on margarita as pianistimo continues....*


pssst, please continue (ooops, I already said that... too much margarita I guess)

[pianistimo]

continuation.  (despite multiple hand raisings - ok mayla, i'm a beginning scholar and i can't handle too many questions - must write instead of go in chat room).



...extremely lengthy cadenzas that had little to do with the piece they were meant to embellish and drew up a list of ten rules governing cadenzas.  quoting him:

1.  the cadenza should reinforce the impression made by the composition by providing a brief summary of it; this may be achieved by weaving some of the important ideas from the piece into the cadenza.

2.  the cadenza should not be difficult for it's own sake, but rather contain thoughts that are suited to the main character of the composition.

3.  the cadenza should not be too long, especially in sad compositions.

4.  modulations should be avoided or used only in passing, and should never stray beyond the main keys established in the piece.

5.  the cadenza, in addition to expressing a unified sentiment, must have some musical variety to maintain a listener's interest.

6.  ideas should not be repeated, either in the same key or different keys.

7.  dissonances, even in single-voiced cadenzas, must be properly resolved.

8.  a cadenza need not be learnt, but should show 'novelty,' 'wit' and 'an abundance of ideas.'

9.  in a cadenza the performer should not stay in one tempo or metre too long, but should give the idea of 'ordered disorder.'  a cadenza may be usefully compared to a dream, in which events that have been compressed into the space of a few minutes make an impression, yet lack of coherence and clear conciousness.

10.  a cadenza should be performed as though it had just occurred to the performer.  nevertheless, it is risky to improvise a cadenza on the spot, and much safer to write it down or at least sketch it in advance.

turk, daniel g.  'klavierschule'(1789) in english as 'school of clavier playing' quoted in the new grove dictionary of music and musicians, second edition #4 ed. by stanley sadie (new york: macmillan publishers limited 2001) 787.

[pianistimo]

continuing here, another delicious brownie from the barenrueiter urtext of mozart kadenzen und eingange zu den klavierkonzerten (otherwise known as cadenzas and lead-ins to the piano concertos).  in the forward it explains:

"mozart composed first and foremost for his sister Nannerl and later, too, for his own pupils, but that he himself would have had no need for a written copy (keep reading!).  this does not imply that the cadenzas and lead-ins he would have played 'off the top of his head' at concerto fermatas would have assumed a substantially different form than those presented in this volume, for by all evidence his most detailed improvisations were reserved for a specific movement in his concerts:  'cadenza' - 'improvisation'; EACH a genre in itself with a clearly defined position in the overall scheme of his 'concertizing.'  this is documented in earlier years by the letters of wolfgang and his mother during the mannheim-paris journey of 1777/78:  "i played two concertos.  improvised.  then a trio"  (augsburg, 16 october 1777); "on the 3rd day there was a grand concert where wolfgang played a concerto AND at the end before the closing symphony improvised and performed a sonata."  (mannheim 8 november 1777); "then i played my old concerto in D, because they like it here.  then i improvised for half an hour." (mannheim, 14 februar 1778); "i played quite a lot to my amusement - played one concerto more than i had promised - and after this did a long improvisation" (strasbourg, 26 october 1778); and later by the handbill announcing the premiere of mozart's piano concerto k 467:  "on thursday the 10th of march 1785 cappellmeister mozart has the honour of offerring a grand concert for his own benefit, in which he will not only play a concerto he has just completed, but will ALSO improvise using a large pedal made especially for the forte piano."  ferguson goes on to say that "the documents are clear: 

"in one part of the programme mozart performed instrumental works, in another part he improvised."  she continues "his impromptu cadenzas within the fixed concerto form were therefore necessarily thematically and harmonically, if not technically more modest than his independent 'improvisations,' where he could, so to speak, pull out the stops and give free reign to his fantasy."  this is confirmed by the studies of christoph wolff who also turned to the composer's original cadenzas and 'lead-ins' and questioned why he wrote them out in the first place?  were they for his students or actually for himself?

"the oft expressed view that mozart's piano concerto cadenzas were primarily written for his students incapable of improvising cannot be supported by evidence.  for instance, the transmission of the cadenza autographs indicates very clearly that the composer intended to reserve these materials primarily for his own use.  in two instances, k 271 (set a, movement 3: eingange) and k 488, the cadenzas were notated directly in the score from which the composer generally read his solo part for his own performances.  in all other instances the cadenzas were notated on separate folios, mostly in small format.  with quite few exceptions, mozart kept the cadenza manuscripts in his own possession.  by habit, he jealously guarded his personal performance materials in order to ensure, in particular, that his concerto scores were not copied without his authorisation.  regarding the cadenzas he seems to have taken a similarly protective stand because outside the inner family circle, there exist virtually no copies."

ferguson, faye, urtextausgabe aus:  wolfgang amadeus mozart, neue ausgabe samlicher wereke, issued by the international stiftung mozarteum (salzburg:  barenreiter-verlag karl votterle, 2004) 8.  and mozart's letters.

[pianistimo]

hands out marguritas to everyone - and lets them fall asleep.

many brownies left on the table.   

wolff believes as margaret mikulska (another researcher of lost autographs) that the 'transmission of the cadenza manuscripts reveals a curious pattern.  for the concertos k 175 to k 459 the cadenza materials have virtually survived intact.' (in all likelihood, the autographs were kept in a separate folio which was aquired along with the greater part of the mozart estate by johann anton andre in 1800).  'however, for the remainder of teh repertoire, except for k 488 and k 595 , no cadenzas have survived.  from letters we know that mozart actually wrote cadenzas for at least two of those concertos, k 466 and k 467, even though no sources have been preserved.  nevertheless, the fact that a whole group of apparently contiguous materials (from k 459 to k 537) disappeared suggests the loss of a second more or less complete portfolio of cadenzas.'  quoting milkulska, 'that cadenzas should be considered as original components of the work might be counted as certain.'  in catalogue 91/1962/ music and music literature/leonard hyman (music) limited - it was declared with the andre print of the d minor concerto k 466 from 1796; "also present are manuscript copies of the two cadenzas, each 2ff folio, on paper whose watermark indicates the year 1791."  history indicates that during world war I, much was destroyed in germany and austria.  could it be that mozart wrote more cadenzas than discovered?

wolff, christoph. "cadenzas and styles of improvisation in mozart's piano concertos."  in 'perspectives on mozart performance,' ed. by r. larry todd and peter williams, 230.  london: cambridge university press, 1991.

[pianistimo]

(ps.  i was not allowed to use internet sources in my paper last year, so i didn't credit margaret mikulska in bibliography - but rather directly in my paper).

more brownies.

what we can see from the cadenzas available is that they are small, brilliant, some make reference to a theme or themes.  there is no elaborate counterpoint or structure and the theme chosen for the starting point is rarely one on which has been a main theme.  mozart uses the diminished seventh chord to quickly arpeggiate up and down the keyboard (much like a jazz performer with a 'riff') expanding harmonically between the tonic 6/4 chord and the dominant 5/3 chord of the final authentic cadence of the movement in which it is located.  even though mozart said, "i always play what occurs to me at the moment," he had certain things in mind when he wrote to his father about Abt Vogler playing one of his piano concertos; "...wherein lies the art of playing 'prima-vista?' in this: in playing the piece in the tempo in which it ought to be played, and in playing all the notes, appoggiaturas and so forth, exactly as they are written and with the appropriate expression and taste, so that you might suppose that the performer had composed it himself."

letter to leopold mozart in 1778 regarding abt vogler. (quoted from harold schoenberg, the great pianists, 40).   

[pianistimo]

ok.  were in the rem state.

besides abt vogler, we have reference to barbara ployer as a dedicatee of several of mozart's piano concertos.  she was a talented piano student of mozart, a fellow-native of salzburg then living in vienna, and he dedicated k 449 saying he "did not wish to deprive her of the possibility of playing it with a small combination of instruments in a drawing room."  again, there is reference to barbara int he dedication of k 453 (with inscription on the autograph).   she played it on june 10th of 1785 at an 'academy' inthe country which was at ployer's house in dobling.  other dedications include the k 456 to another vienna virtuoso, maria theresa paradis.  "this young lady, who had been blind since childhood, and was at that time twenty-five years old, was the daughter of a state councilor of lower austria, and a godchild of the empress."  she was a pupil of leopold kozeluch and gained favor either by mozart's 'broadmindedness, or indifference.'  (as she was a pupil of his deadly enemy) with a new concerto to perform in paris.  he brought it to her int he fall of 1784.  the solo part was feminine and sensuous.  it sounds very french.

most of the rest of the piano concertos of mozart are for himself.  in fact, he probably would have written more than two in the last four or five years of his life (according to einstein) if the viennese public had paid greater attention to him than they did.  "among the twenty- three concertos for piano and orchestra, there is only one that is below the highest level - the concertos for three pianos (k 242), written to be played by three lady amateurs."  all the rest were composed and rigoured around the famous spontaneous extemporizing that mozart could do with his cadenzas.

[m1469]

wow pianistimo...


Okay, we should form a piano duo, you and I... and take over the world wearing biking shorts  ... you really don't see that everyday, a female piano duo in biking shorts, I mean there are plenty of male piano duos who wear biking shorts (they're EVERYWHERE !!!  it's like everybody wants to make the same statement (yeah, I was there Bob, and I saw you with my very own eyes so please don't try to deny it  )), but I have never seen any females do this....

LOL



*off to go watch a piano duo concert with men in biking shorts*

[pianistimo]

yes!  mayla, lets do it.  lets show them that women can be strong and beautiful too.  and, let's let ted see some real mud wrestling at the piano.  i think he wants fanny adams.

i want to play 'real' music.  i want to be just like everyone else who plays the piano. (wishes i could memorize like i used to).  can't women do something well and not be considered stuck up.  why did ted bring up his wife if he wasn't talking about women.

ok. ted.  this is a challenge!  (ted falls over in the corner after the first round of the duo pianists playing the hungarian rhapsodies to ted's jazz version of 'the high and mighty.'

for a final victory,m1469and pianistimo shut ted's fingers in the bench.  then we sit on it.

[m1469]

How does Ted manage this ?  He often seems to get caught in the middle of our shenanigans, pianistimo.

You know, I am really not into trying to show or prove to anybody anything.  I mean, they will only see what they want to see and what they are prepared to see.  There is very little we can do about, it would seem.  So, I think we should just BE strong and beautiful, because it's who we are.  If others cannot see it, it's not truly our problem to "fix".   As far as I am concerned, that's true for anyone.   

I don't think we really have to actually prove anything at all (and how can we ?), we "just" have to live it.  I think living it is more difficult, actually, because when we are just trying to prove it, there will always be somebody who is convinced (for whatever reason) even if it's entirely an act.   Regardless, we know when it's real and when it's not, and we have to live with ourselves either way.  Occasionally, I actually enjoy the challenge of honest living  .


m1469

[pianistimo]

yes! here's another brownie just for you!

"with such composer-performers as mozart and beethoven, the cadenza reached it's height as a medium for spontaneous improvisation.  the fame of their extempore renditions has come down to us from more than one wonder-struck observer, and one needs only remember the profound sincerity of their music to conjecture with reasonable certainty that their cadenza improvisations were aflame with creative fire and controlled by a stupendous knowledge of the craft of composition."

ambrose rieder remarked, "i cannot describe my astonishment when i happened to be so fortunate as to hear the immortal wolfgang amadeus mozart playing before a large company of people.  not only did he very with great skill what he was playing..." but extemporized to the point that rieder reiterated "i had never run across anything so great or wonderful."  franz niemetschek, karl ditters von dittersdorf, johann freidrich rochlitz, and others who heard mozart back up rieder's remarks.

sources:  venius, abraham.  the concerto (new york:  dover publications, 1964) 40-41.
schoenberg, harold.  the great pianists (new york:  simon and schuster, 1963) 41.
   

 

[pianistimo]

ok.  here's a kochel breakfast (continuation):

l.r. kochel lists all of the published piano cadenzas of mozart in his versichnis der werke w.a. mozart.  also, it may be noted that andre also published most of the cadenzas (cadences ou point d'orgue pour pianoforte, offenbach, 1804) after artaria had printed virtually the same material only a few years earlier (cadences originales, vienna, 1801).  from these listed existing cadenzas we can find the manuscripts and demonstrate that it was important for mozart to write them down rather than play them completely ex tempore. he probably altered minor details or even larger portions in the act of performance, but generally followed his carefully planned improvisatory designs.  in looking at several autographs it can be observed that mozart not only sketched them but also carefully notated them.

"on 22 january 1783, mozart wrote to his father in salzburg: ' shall send the cadenzas and introductions (eingange) to dear sister at the first opportunity.  i have not yet altered the introductions in the rondo, for whenever i play this concerto (k 271), i always play whatever occurs to me at the moment.' "

mozart here, though mentioning spontaneous improvsation, specifically mentions that he had 'not yet altered the eingage' in the k 271 finale; that improvisations on the spur of the moment may have been an essential element of the earlier salzburg cadenza style, but less so in the viennese style.  and, since the majority of the extant cadenzas actually originate from the vienna years after 1783, mozart shows the curious absence of the earlier improvisatory practice.... (where's the rest of my paper - i am missing bits and pieces - maybe i am reading off of my second draft and i think i did three)

references:  kochel, l.r. versichnis der werke w.a. mozart, ed. otto jahn (salzburg: breitkopf and hartel, 1964) 732. 
*note:  the early cadenzas (set a) of k 271 were in part notated in the autograph score.  the cadenzas for the double and triple concertos (k 365 and k 242), respectively, had to be written out since they could not have been improvised to begin with.  there is no evidence that substantial salzburg cadenza materials might have been lost.

ps in my paper i listed all the piano concertos and the ones that had cadenzas vs the ones that don't have existing cadenzas.

[pianistimo]

also, there is a thematic guide to the cadenzas found under section 624 of alfred einstein's edition of kochel's catalogue, 1937.  (the breiktkopf and hartel edition of the cadenzas being out of print).  this whole series has a modern edition by broude brothers of new york.

the thematic guide by alfred einstein was taken from kochel's listing k 624, thirty-five cadenzas to his concertos.  in the kalmus study score, they are listed as no. 988.  these models are useable for the composition of a cadenza for a classical concerto.  they are small, brilliant, and make reference to a theme or themes.  there is no elaborate counterpoint or structure and the theme chosen for the starting point is rarely one which has been a main theme.  mozart's cadenzas are usually quite brief.  even tho mozart said, "i always play what occurs to me at the moment," he had certain things in mind.

*** i can't find my last paper, but i think i have it on the computer somewhere.  anyway, what i did was to show how some of the early cadenzas started out 'non measure.'  they look very extemporaneous because they don't have as many bar lines.  in fact, they are supposed to be played that way (according to the tastes of the performer at the time).  then, later on, mozart specifically puts in bar lines and notates exactly how he wants the cadenza performed.  this was interesting to me.  i forget which example i used.  anyway... will look.  i think it was k 271.

[pianistimo]

i found a concise list through hutching's book, "a companion to mozart concertos." they are listed as: (but for grad paper research the kochel was better source)

K 175 in D mov't 1 and 2. two versions of each cadenza

K 246 in C mov't 1, two cadenzas.  Movt' 2, three cadenzas

K 271 in E-flat, two cadenzas available for each movement

K 365 in E-flat, cadenzas to mov'ts 1 and 3 (two pianos)

K 382 supplementary rondo to K 175

K 413 in F, cadenzas to movt's 1 and 2

K 414 in A, cadenzas to all movements, two for mov't 2

K 415 in C, cadenzas to all movements

K 499 in E-flat, cadenza to mov't 1

K 450 in B-flat, cadenzas to mov'ts 1 and 2

K 451 in D, cadenzas to movement 1 and 2

K 453 in G, cadenzas to mov't 1 and 2. (two sets)

K 456 in B-flat, two cadenzas to mov't 1. one cadenza to mov't 3.

K 459 in F, cadenzas to mov'ts 1 and 3.

K 488 in A, cadenza to mov't 1

K 595 in B-flat, cadenzas to movt's 1 and 3

[pianistimo]

is this interesting to anyone?  maybe mozart lovers.

since the concertos like K 467, which mozart performed himself, has no existing  cadenza, concertos such as these must be extemporized or composed.  this type of cadenza composition requires taking the diminished 7th chord and quickly arpeggiating up and down the keyboard.  it is an elaboration of the progression from the tonic second-inversion or 6/4 chord, on which the orchestra pauses, to the dominant, to the tonic (which is often marked with a trill that the soloist plays) where the orchestra reenters and begins the coda. 

festis's vision of the omnitonic state of music (where every tone may become a leading tone)...was not mozart's system.  in mozart's system, it is the tonic potential of every tone that is the form generating element.  in the k 413 we see a form emerging of a departure from the 6/4 chord (over C bass), and elaboration which moves to a DECEPTIVE cadence in B-natural.  Then it moves to B-flat (which is still a IV chord in the key of F).  mozart is already becoming quite a skilled composer to modulate and not care about moving to the V chord until much later (despite fermatas).  There are really no themes, but just snippets of motives that sequence or are elaborated on.  measures 22-23 are sequencing measures and not just figures.  this is a new idea, along with the old idea of shorter sequences of octaves, thirds, repeated sixteenth note patterns, and chromatic trills at the end (perhaps a newer idea - combining the old trill with moving up chromatically from one measure to the next).  mozart knows how to move anywhere and yet not modulating out of the existing key.  he coud if he wanted to, but in his cadenzas he does not modulate (whereas other composers who wrote for him sometimes did).

the early cadenzas (the ones i identified as non measure) use pedal tones.  "the pedal tone is itself a form of elaboration, for it allows a tone to persist throughout the most all-encompassing chord changes possible." there is a moment of keylessness or a contradiction of the final outcome, however, the contradiction functions only to permit the final reestablishment of the tonal order.  mozart used elements of the hexachord system with the old salzburg tradition. 

[pianistimo]

(my paper is all screwed up in terms of order, but here is a little more info out of the order - but hopefully fits here - as i'm using old notes and not my exact finished paper)

quoting and using dr. william drabkin's shenkerian analysis of the cadenza #15 (written for piano concerto in C K 415), first movement.  it starts out with the pattern previously mentioned (6/4 chord - elaboration) and, after a restatement of a motive in the opening theme (m2) very quickly moves to (m6) the V chord.  this short move to the dominant is one half of two 'harmonic cycles' as dr. drabkin puts it.  using his idea of applying shenkerian analysis, he simply hears this as an 'interruption' and not as an antecedent/consequent relationship.  mozart returns to the I chord by the use of a tremolo upward scale and downward arpeggio back into the second 'cycle.' this one defines the second theme and turns it into variations.  measures 13 and 14 use sequence figuration for a five-note motive, and then a gain in measures 15-17 with a six note motive (that turns into twelve and then sixteen) which leads finally into downward scales (m20) and then into an arpeggio/sequence/arpeggio.  at measure 22 there is a fermata which then leads into the return of the orchestra and a return of the I  6/4 chord to the I chord by way of a decorated trill on the V7 (immediately preceding the last I chord) 

if you want to see a good example of the use of shenkerian analysis, you can write:

wmd@soton.ac.uk , "analysis as a practical tool:  a case study, article on internet @1998/

[pianistimo]

mozart was not stylistically excessive.  he simply follows the general plan of the day (dg turk's rules for writing cadenzas) and uses his own harmonic cycles.  for the K 415, the cycles would be seconds and thirds 9which follows the proposed cycles of dr. william drabkin).  we can see that mozart's cadenzas are truly short, have only bits of thematic material, have good deal of sequence and figuration, do not use modulation, and use 'harmonic cycles.'  the subdominant regions are always elaborated (after the interruption mentioned above, and not before!) *note of thanks to dr. drabkins analysis  mozart gives a fine example of working in a composer's own themes into a cadenza with his writing of several cadenzas for another composer (js schroeter) who was a contemporary.  in the K 626 AII kochel writes 'piano cadenzas of mozart- not related to his own concerti (items D-O) further investigation by reading 'a minor correction to the mozart compedium' by tl hubeart reveals that cadenza 'N' begins with the secondary theme found at bar 18ff of schroeter's opening allegro.  while cadenza 'O' elaborates on the initial theme of the middle movement, grazioso.  he goes on to ask how it was possible that three respectable sources (the kochel catalog, the new grove dictionary, and the compendium) to have missed this connection!  obviously mozart believed there should be some reference to themes in cadenzas.

 ok.  i'm trying to impress no one.  i'm was just a little crazy at the time and found great glee in finding this information out.

[pianistimo]

mozart also wrote a cadenza for ignaz beecke (K 626 a II/Cadenza 'K').  this appeared in auction in 1928 and was described as being written by mozart for 'a piano concerto in D major of ignaz v. beecke.  mozart met beecke at least four times.  they were involved in a piano contest in the winter of 1777.  they were friendly and played a four hand arrangement of a mozart piano concerto in october 1790.

ps. i found out the autograph to the 'D' cadenza lays int he paris conservatory of musique.  the 'H' cadenza was auctioned by southeby's.  'F' G' and 'H' belonged to concertos of john schroeter and are similar to 'D' in that they are all written for schroeter's piano concerto op. 3 #4.  they belonged to the first movement (concerto for harpsichord or pianoforte) and were dedicated to the duchess of anchaster.  london 1778.  schroeter died ten years after they were composed (in 1778) of a lung disease.

resources:  tl hubeart, 'a minor correction to the mozart compendium,' ny, schirmer, 1991.

[pianistimo]

since we know mozart had definite ideas on how he wanted cadenzas written...did he also speak about how he didn't want them written?  yes! i believe so.  mozart wrote 'a musical joke' (circa 1785) to jest about how music can be 'second rate, superficial, stubbornly and enduringly devoid of any significant idea.'  mozart violates the elementary laws of composition (by creating consecutive fifths and octaves, doubling...eek i can't find the rest - i know it's around here somewhere).

well, my daughter wants to use the computer so i will sign off.

next brownie :  analysis of cadenza mozart wrote for schroter  (i think i misspelled his name above - as different books have different spellings)

[pianistimo]

brownie for today:

analysis of cadenza mozart wrote for schroeter:

similar to the k 413, the schroter cadenza employs chromaticism also.  it allows mozart to move easily from theme to theme with elaborations and figurations that are smooth and yet exciting.  especially wonderful is the 'piu presto' ending and dramatic chromatic run to the leading tone c# which is extended and leads into the tonic of d minor.  a new feature in this cadenza would be the use of three whole tone steps in measure 61.

mozart was particularly taken by the concertos of johann samuel schroter (whose aquaintance mozart made in the summer of 1778).  mozart asked about these concertos in a letter, 'write and tell me whether you have schroter's concertos in salzburg, and hullmandel's sonatas. if not, i should like to buy them and send them to you.  both works are very fine.'  "who was johann samuel schroter?  he was the son of a saxon musician, an oboist in warsaw, who in 1763 had been seeking a place in his native saxony for his family of four children.  for his daughter corona, then a girl of twelve, he found a place promptly; corona schroter, who later in weimar set goethe's heart aflame (among others), needs no further introduction.  johann samuel, who was probably a little older than his sister corona, became a clavier virtuoso, and in 1772 went to london, where he made his debut in the bach-abel concerts, just as mozart, six or seven years earlier had been taken under johann christian's wing.  in 1778 , he became johann christian's successor as music master to the queen, and like mozart, he died young, on 2 november 1788."  three of schroeter's concertos have mozart cadenzas.  this is proof that he either played them himself or had his pupils play them.  mozart's own first three viennese concertos were composed in the style of schroter.

reference:  alfred einstein, 'mozart, his character, his work,' (oxford university press, ny, 1945) 296-297.

[Aziel]

Well, I'm in the chat room right now!!

[pianistimo]

someone's here.  yippee.  i am not talking to the wind.  ok.  this is really sad, but i am finding bits and pieces of my paper but not the whole thing.  so, i'm trying to remember my points.

i think the point about how mozart wrote for others was that he tried his best to write in their style and not his own (if you know what i mean).  mozart seems to write much longer cadenzas for schroter than himself - and more thematic involvement is observed in the cadenza written for schroter (whereas in the mozart cadenzas there are only bits and pieces of the thematic material.)  schroter did not bother with any development in the first section of his concerti, or with any "organic relation between the solo and tutti.  for this, he substituted a free solo, thematically unrelated to the rest of the movement, which led back to the recapitulation, and was often of great and even enchanting beauty." (again alfred einstein, 296-297)

mozart expected, probably, that if someone were to extemporize cadenzas for him - similar kindnesses would be expected.  so then, i analyzed a bunch of mozart's own cadenzas, among which started with the k 413.

that's the next brownie.

[pianistimo]

analysis of k 413:

according to dr. sterling murray's handout, 'performance practice,' in the artaria edition (1785) of the k415 there is a figured bass (added by the publisher) for the tuttis played by the piano.  "mozart's indication of 'col basso' (or his duplication of the bass) in the piano (continuo) part in his manuscripts in non-solo passages" provided figured bass for the piano during tuttis in all 18th century editions of the concertos (seen also by left hand continuo part that begins the k413 cadenza).  mozart was known to have studied fux's gradus ad parnassum and was particularly fond of the figured bass in composition.  in fact, leopold's name is inscribed in a copy of the 'gradus' now in the mozarteum at salzburg; and with it is a notebook in which as a child wolfgang amadeus worked through fux's counterpoint exercises.  mozart's teacher, padre martin said: ' we have no system other than that of fux.'

in composing the cadenza k 413, you can see that mozart started with two ideas.  melody and bass.  from there, everything just flowed into an organization that was ordered (almost preordered) and made his composition easier the more he did it.  you can see the idea of the figured bass in the pedal tone C (doubled) that is used in the first seven measures of the k413.  then, again, with the next seven measures (with chromatic doubling).  the use of the long notes (whole notes) recalls the ancient practice, and the shorter chromatic doubling incorporates mozart's new practice "but exceeds rameau's ideas with it's use of chromaticism and emphasis on relations" to all the notes.  "mozart's system is similar to the idea of tonality as described by festis, in that it comprehends the relatedness of all the tones."

"the pedal tone is itself a form of elaboration, for it allows a tone to persist throughout the most all-encompassing chord changes possible (thinking about ragam's now)." there is a moment of keylessness or a contradiction of the final outcome (m 12), however, the contradiction functions only to permit the final reestablishment of the tonal order in m 22 and m 29.  this cadenza is quite unique in that it does not establish a major V chord anywhere except right near the end (before moving back to tonic in the last measure) m 21 makes you think he will move to the V, but instead he moves to a minor natural v by the use of a minor iv7 chord.  all in all, the form stays intact, even though the harmonies are avante garde.  in the k 413, we see in m 7 the 'departure.' then an extended elaboration from m 8 to m 30.  the return is a surprise, but yet expected.  mozart used a system of composition that looked ahead and behind at the same time.  he used elements of the hexachord system with the old salzburg tradition.

[Bob]

I see.  It's like a live chat, but frozen in time so others can view it later and respond.  Hmmm.... It'll never catch on.  Good try though!

Pianistimo is overprepared for class.  That's plenty for a ten minute presentation.

[m1469]

I see.  It's like a live chat, but frozen in time so others can view it later and respond.  Hmmm.... It'll never catch on.  Good try though!

Pianistimo is overprepared for class.  That's plenty for a ten minute presentation.

hmmmm... well, Bob, I suppose I should be able to count on you for some good teasing.. and I will admit I am almost nothing but *confused* (again) lately... heh... but are you teasing me or pianistimo ?  I just can't really tell  :-

Also, does anybody know what I was initially trying to organize ?  I wanted to organize a "chat" in our lovely chat room... LOL... 


m1469


ps  Who am I    *wanders over to the piano and sits down...*

[Bob]

I was joking.  The chat idea got lost and pianististististmo did a long presentation.  I don't think that would work in a chat room.

I was wondering if the chat/presentation idea would really work.  If there are enough members for it, if people would do "homework" for it (I know I've got too much going on now for that even though I'd like to), and if people would sit through a presentation -- So instead of a presentation on chat, someone could present in the forum just like pianistimo has.  That's kind of why it was a bit funny.  The idea of talking in person turns into chat... The idea of chat turns into the forum, the original place to begin with.   Circles.

[m1469]

Well, okay Bob.   This is the kind of feedback that is helpful.  I only wanted to try as we had talked about it before, and I thought it could be great.  However, maybe the chat is best reserved for randomness.


m1469 

[pianistimo]

so much for detail,  in-depth study, and, so on and on.  all people really come for is the food.  i should have known that.  next time i will just sit and eat.

bob and mayla, if you lived near me i would invite you both (and anyone else that wanted to come) over to a vegetable piano party.  it would be a piano made entirely of vegetables.  people could come and dip their veggies in the middle of the piano (dip area).

i would also serve a watermelon whole note.  that is, a bowl of cut watermelon with a whole note cut out of the rind and put on top for decoration.

there might be some random tangents we could discuss and perhaps a book could be 'in the works.'  maybe on some aspect of teaching?  it seems like that subject has the most overall appeal - since you might see some money coming back.

in musicology, i think the appeal is really finding out the information.  i don't know many musicologists that make a ton of money.  they probably lose it - spending so much time on one project.  and, then travelling, and paying for all those seminars.  of course, you can do this in teaching, too.  (spend too much money). 

[AvoidedCadence]

this (I mean m1469's Idea) could be quite interesting - sort of like a self-directed internet masterclass.  (No offence pianistimo I will reread your essay next time I have to improvise a cadenze.)

I think that the idea of doing 1 invention or something would work, but maybe would be too "formal" (for lack of a better word) - it would be like one of those things where everyone listens politely, asks a few polite questions, and can't wait for the food.  Of course, everyone thinks his/her presentation is the most well-prepared and interesting, and can't see that it's only his/her extensive knowledge that makes it that way.

One think that would be interesting would be to do a sort of "book club" approach : everyone "reads" the same piece, then we discuss it.  We could even meet twice, once to decide on a piece (based on who is interested, time committments, etc.) and then later to discuss challenges, approaches, etc..  Those who can could even post excerpts of their own recordings (not necessarily at a finished state).  We could together listen to various recordings (assuming we have access to music libraries), discuss ornamentation, .....

For this month I suggest all interested learn Liszt's Reminiscences de Norma.  Next month, we can choose another piece 

I will bring bananas, for all aspiring piano-monkeys.

[pianistimo]

reminiscences of norma?  ok.  goes to listen.

say, what kind of reminiscences are we talking about?  you know liszt!  wow.  that norma.   
you can download the first page under a site called www.everynote.com/

then scroll down to the list of composers.  click liszt.  then scroll down to transcriptions and look under bellini. 

until my husband helps me record myself on the piano, i will be content to look up who exactly norma was.  maybe i'll start with bellini.

[m1469]

Well, first of all, I am happy there is some kind of interest in this idea.   A book club type thing would be a perfect concept (however, I have never been part of one before, so I don't really know).

I personally have questions regarding the recommended piece for the following reasons :

1.  It is advanced repertoire, and thereby automatically excludes a large number of possibly interested people.  I realize there have not been too many parties interested thus far, however, since a couple of people have started taking it seriously I am wondering if more people might show up.  I personally would like to try to include more people.  (which was part of the conept behind something like the inventions, more advanced people could select more advanced pieces, and the less advanced, likewise).


2.  It is 22 pages long.   I am not willing to drop my other repertoire to suddenly begin work on this.  I was hoping that we could choose something that would *supplement* whatever we are already working on without it getting in the way.  (also part of the concept behind the inventions).

Maybe I have misunderstood you.  Your suggestion is to just listen and so on ?  (if so, I am completely game and anybody could do that).

3.  The only thing I am concerned about with everybody just showing up on whatever day and time without there being any sort of official presentation scenario, is the natural tendencies in group dynamics.  Somebody will inevitabely try to lead the show the entire time and this may also leave some people out who have diligently prepared but simply do not have the mannerisms to butt in.


But, if more people show up and this particular thing is exactly what they would like to do, then I will by no means stand in the way.  I just want to give people a chance to un-shy their wishes, if they happen to have any.

Those are my thoughts on it thus far.


m1469


ps -  you can download the entire Liszt's Reminiscences de Norma (for free) at sheetmusicarchive

[pianistimo]

you know, your ideas are great mayla.  we could have several discussions going on at various times.  more advanced rep at a certain time and less advanced at another.  i am putting together a notebook of levels of pieces and would be interested to hear about the specific techniques in each piece that categorize it at the level it should be.  this would help other teachers, too, when they read.

perhaps we should discuss certain points:

suggested or known repertoire level
if anyone has a student currently working the piece
what the difficult measures are
how certain teachers work them
if anyone has performed the piece at concert level
some of the history of the piece
anyone who's analyzed the piece or knows the form
extra info

[ted]

m1469:

I think your idea might be excellent for a select group of members. I would not join in myself because I'm not very good at chat, I am available only at globally inconvenient times and I lack the commonality of musical approach of most members here. I suppose I could ask questions but I'm not really interested in classical music beyond a certain fairly naive point.

I might enjoy entering the chat room at such times as a silent observer though - a spectator at the wrestling so to speak ?

[pianistimo]

dear avoided cadence,

i found a neat article stressing 'bel canto' and it uses norma as an example.  thought you and others might like a read:

www.peter-feuchtwanger.de/english/belcanto_engl.html

it reminds me of a quote that i read from placido domingo (on the other hand)

he said something like :  "good pianists say they want to sound like a human voice (singer), but i, on the other hand, want to sound like a bosendorfer piano."

ps  i learned that norma was an opera that bellini wrote, and obviously this is a transcription from that opera.  but, as someone pointed out, it leaves out some of the beautiful arias, and mostly liszt goes for the fantastic beginning and end.

[Aziel]

Next Sunday - 8:00 Eastern Time (New York) | Be There, or Be Square:     
                        5:00 Western/Pacific Time (California)


...P.M!!

[pianistimo]

is that am or pm?  i am sometimes in and sometimes out and sometimes studying, and sometimes practicing.  it depends on the weather.

you know, i feel actually more comfortable writing.  it's a sort of writing chat.  that is because i am not a professor.  and , will probably never be at a professor level. therefore, i glean my info from books.  it would be fairly boring to chat with everyone by reading from a book.  and, the squeal from my speaker phone would make people cringe.  you'd hear a three year old in the background crunching nuts.  and, occasional chinese spoken by the friend she has.  she speaks sort of english/chinese at the same time. 

my life is in a sort of organized chaos.  this forum is my only chance to enjoy peace and quiet.  otherwise, i am barraged by the sound of the washing machine, dishwasher, and children.  this keeps me from having a constant train of thought - and only in deep meditated pratice at the piano can i avoid this.

please forgive my quiet nature, but i will post more stuff as i find it. 

yours truly,  susan

[AvoidedCadence]

I personally have questions regarding the recommended piece for the following reasons

1.  It is advanced repertoire, and thereby automatically excludes a large number of possibly interested people.  I realize there have not been too many parties interested thus far, however, since a couple of people have started taking it seriously I am wondering if more people might show up.  I personally would like to try to include more people.  (which was part of the conept behind something like the inventions, more advanced people could select more advanced pieces, and the less advanced, likewise).

I was only joking - hence the  and the one-month time frame.  I certainly don't have the time or inclination to learn a Liszt fantasy right now, either (although I am about to pick new repertoire for school. hmmm?).  Also for the trial of this idea it would make obvious sense to choose smaller pieces.

I now understand what you are saying about the inventions and the various levels of difficulty in the set.   Although it could be interesting to be playing the same piece as somebody else.  Another suggestion would be to learn an entire Schumann set between whoever is interested ... there are lots (romanzas, intermezzi, fughettas, and so on, in addition to the well-known ones like Kinderscenen, Noveletten), so we could choose one appropriate to the size of the group.

Stay away from book clubs  they are for mundane people who have nothing better to do but make themselves feel educated by repeating critics' cliched phrases to each other.  Kind of like the posts on pianists in the 'Repertoire' section of the forum.  I only brought it up because in some clubs, everyone reads the same book and then they discuss it... 

Seriously, if we are going to get this thing going, we should figure out who is "in".  Aziel has suggested 8pm on Sunday, although I'll have just moved back to school and can't guarantee my internet will be operating.  Also are we going to pick pieces in advance of our first meeting?  That would seem to make sense, so people could find the music on their own time.  Picture a chat session:

A: "so what about doing a set of Schubert dances?"
B: "i dont know.  r they hard?"
A: "u can find them online at www.<insertsitehere>.ru"
 ~long pause~
B: "where can i find a recording?"
A: "www.<anothersite>.com"
 ~long pause~

you get the idea

So we might want to choose rep before our first meeting.  Or: we could all listen to a set (eg all Bach 2-part inventions) and read through them a bit, then choose pieces at the first meeting.

Either way, we will need some sort of deadline and some sort of sign-up list.  Maybe all interested parties could post, along with their time-zone.  Then we could work something out.  Maybe we should start a sign-up thread.  That might attract wider attention, if people have been ignoring this thread for a while ?

[pianistimo]

i didn't suggest a book club idea.  i suggested adding to the chat via this thread.  

[m1469]

I was only joking - hence the  and the one-month time frame. 

oh, he he  , I get it now.

Another suggestion would be to learn an entire Schumann set between whoever is interested ... there are lots (romanzas, intermezzi, fughettas, and so on, in addition to the well-known ones like Kinderscenen, Noveletten), so we could choose one appropriate to the size of the group.

I really like this idea, maybe even better than the Inventions because I have seen a lot of them over some time now and have not really explored this set by Schumann, but would like to.  Also, I am all for people learning the same piece, too, that could also be really cool.  So I am game for this particular set, and then from there, I am game for however we go about it.

Stay away from book clubs  they are for mundane people who have nothing better to do but make themselves feel educated by repeating critics' cliched phrases to each other.  Kind of like the posts on pianists in the 'Repertoire' section of the forum.  I only brought it up because in some clubs, everyone reads the same book and then they discuss it... 

he he 

Seriously, if we are going to get this thing going, we should figure out who is "in".  Aziel has suggested 8pm on Sunday, although I'll have just moved back to school and can't guarantee my internet will be operating.  Also are we going to pick pieces in advance of our first meeting?  That would seem to make sense, so people could find the music on their own time.  Picture a chat session:

So we might want to choose rep before our first meeting.  Or: we could all listen to a set (eg all Bach 2-part inventions) and read through them a bit, then choose pieces at the first meeting.

Either way, we will need some sort of deadline and some sort of sign-up list.  Maybe all interested parties could post, along with their time-zone.  Then we could work something out.  Maybe we should start a sign-up thread.  That might attract wider attention, if people have been ignoring this thread for a while ?

Yes, this was exactly the intial idea behind this exact thread.  I will start a new one though with some more specifics.  I think a week from now might be cutting it a little close (plus, I couldn't make it for sure  ).

Well, okay, I am really looking forward to this now.


Thanks for your interest,
m1469

[stevie]

what

[llamaman]

Is it too late to join? I didn't know this thread existed up till a few seconds ago. What pieces is it, and what else do I have to know?

[m1469]

Is it too late to join? I didn't know this thread existed up till a few seconds ago. What pieces is it, and what else do I have to know?

No, not too late at all.  It is really just getting underway actually.  I am going to start a new thread with the information right now, so it is clear and people can let us know they want to be a part of it (mainly so you can be included in any sort of planning).

Okay, I am starting the new thread.. right.... NOW !....

Please sign up here :

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,12121.msg127936.html#msg127936




m1469

[llamaman]

Aha, so I see now